Me thought this was solidly good-but-not-great — if we have to make Game of Thrones comparison, contrast charming, clever, soulful, self-hating Peter Dinkledge constantly talking way out of trouble in early episodes of that show, to Cosmo Jarvis just yelling at everyone in language he know full well they not understand. Me find it somewhat less compelling!
And way show treats language bother me more than it should. Japanese dialogue is in Japanese with subtitles. English dialogue in English. So far, so good. But Portuguese dialogue is in... English? It just baffling choice, given there are times when we know Blackthorne switches between English and Portuguese, but Jarvis just yell dialogue in English either way. Me not understand why they treat two languages differently, and me suspect it will continue to bug me for rest of series, or at least until other English-speaking characters no longer part of show.
Just finished watching the first episode, and came here to leave a similar comment about the language choices! I think it's mostly great that more TV and movie productions in recent years are giving us characters speaking in the actual languages they'd use instead of accented English, but it's very strange and immersion-breaking when only one foreign language in the story gets that treatment.
EDIT: I think the early scenes with Blackthorne and his crew are supposed to be in Dutch, too -- he's the only Englishman on-board -- but the dialogue is instead presented in English like the Portuguese is. Such a weird choice.
Really good point! A subtitled (...speaking in Portuguese...) could help a little to acknowledge it at least.
Maybe the rule is that in each scene where they don't acknowledge the language switch amongst the Europeans we can assume that both characters speaking can understand English and Portuguese or English and Dutch. 🤷♂️
I was getting frustrated about him yelling in English too. I can chalk it up to desperation but a diplomatic tone might have been more productive. Then again maybe provoking your captors could lead to some kind of unexpected opening to make progress. Like they lose their tempers and fumble and then you have a chance to learn something, steal the keys, or even escape. Sounds like a story beat we've all seen before - in fact there's plenty of fun TV Tropes pages on the topic.
Yes. At the very beginning he thinks he's so superior, as an Englishman and a (Protestant!) Christian and the Japanese are savages and idiots not deserving of respect. But he knows nothing of their culture at that point and also to be fair he's just been through some horrific ordeal at sea. All this to say I agree the way he acted at the beginning was annoying (including just yell in your native language to make them understand ugly foreigner trope) but understandable in context and he changes his tactics pretty quickly after that point
I noticed this and agree except there’s one problem: no one knows English except Blackthorne. The common language he can speak is Portuguese. So that means the show, if accurate, would be switching between Japanese and Portuguese. The business side of FX would not have been pleased! It’s a compromise to placate the suits. A show that uses language perfectly is Pachinko (on Apple TV+), flowing easily from Korean to Japanese to English (with color coded subtitles for each language.)
So glad this show is being covered here! I read the book about a year ago, and was on the fence about checking out this new adaptation. (I didn't bother with the original 70s one, largely for the reasons you laid out above.)
I was a skeptical modern reader, but the novel surprised me with how fleshed-out its Japanese characters generally seemed to be. The story definitely engages in some broad East/West dichotomies, but I'd say neither side of the cultural exchange is portrayed as wholly good or bad, and the primary arc of the piece does involve the European protagonist gaining a deeper understanding and appreciation for the people around him. At the same time, his own reputation gradually shifts from that of an uncivilized curiosity to a strange but honorable outsider -- particularly after he agrees to start bathing more than once a year!
It's still white savior adjacent, but that element is handled pretty well for the most part, and from this write-up, it sounds like the new show does even better on that front. Even on the page I was struck by the GOT-like intrigues and oblique threats punctuated by sudden outbursts of graphic violence, so I'm glad to hear that that part is coming across loud and clear in adaptation. I'll definitely have to find time in my schedule to check out at least these first couple episodes.
I came here comment on that. I and a few of my friends read Shogun in high school (early 00s), and had a big viewing party when we tracked down VHS tapes of the miniseries. So its been a while since I've read it, but my memory is it tilts toward romanticizing Japan as better than Europe. That has its own issues, but is perhaps a lesser and less common sin than the feared 'white guy becomes the bestest foreigner ever' trope. The arc is that Blackthorne comes expecting savages, and gets civilized by then - or at least, adopts their ways and is given a unique, proscribed role.
I just finished the book last night immediately before watching the episodes, and I'm not sure I totally agree that it romanticizes Japan. I think in some ways maybe it does, but there are also certainly times when the narrative is on Blackthorn's side, particularly when he's taken aback by how carelessly life can be treated (as mentioned in the review and deliberately highlighted early in both the show and book.)
I knew almost nothing about the book beyond the premise, the publication date, and the first trailer for the show, and went in expecting at least some level of problematic-ness, but didn't find that to be the case at all. It's thoughtful, nuanced, and just interested in everything about this period and the cultural forces involved.
I think he was saying the original miniseries romanticizes the Japanese (not necessarily the book). I'm not sure I agree with that assessment, but it certainly was (at the time) an amazing introduction to Japanese culture. Toranaga being played by Toshiro Mifune (one of the best actors ever) was a really big reason for its success.
I was referring to the book and the mini-series, but I remembered part of the book more than others (especially Blackthorne's conversion to Japan's standards of personal hygiene). I agree a/the key thing is that the book has an amazing amount of detail and interest in the period. Thanks for the context, everyone!
The mini-series does make a brief, significant change to the book's ending with a lot of implications for characterization and theme, and I wonder which way this production will go.
I've never read the novel or seen the 1980 miniseries but just from the first (long) episode this version doesn't agree with Blackthorn''s point of view that Europe is better or more advanced than Japan. The Portuguese guy just flat out tells him that Osaka is way more advanced than any European city and it's clear we're meant to agree. The word the Japanese use to refer to him is subtitled as "barbarian" to underline this. But at the same time the world of the Japanese is presented as extremely violent and dark. Having no idea what's coming next I'm find this approach really interesting
I agree. Everyone in the show views the “other” as a barbarian. I’m not sure they are wrong. Humanity is capable of great beauty and sophistication, but also immense cruelty and destruction-regardless of ethnicity. I’m looking forward to how the politics and scheming play out.
Tiny nitpick. The original NBC miniseries aired Sept 1980, not 1976.
I remember it vividly, as it was a huge deal in my household because Asian representation was not a thing I saw on TV. I had the Asian guy on Barney Miller, and the other Asian guy on Quincy, then I had to go to white guy David Carradine on Kung Fu.
I saw in 1980 as well, and it (and Roots) were, by far, my favorite miniseries of that era. The performances were spectacular, and it's hard not to compare them to this new version.
It's odd to come here and have almost no one else who has seen the original. I suspect many Gen-X households definitely saw it as that was when we all tended to watch the same things. I was 13, and I immediately read the book (and also King Rat, Tai-Pei, and Noble House).
If I remember correctly, a villager doesn't bow as a samurai rides by, and samurai turns and lops the villager's head clean off. I think that was within the first 15 minutes of the first episode. That got me excited because I thought there would be a lot of swordplay, but it became a political intrigue and romantic story that was a bit boring for my 8-yr old self.
Yes! And that was such an extreme an unexpected thing to see with no warning on 1980 broadcast TV! I actually kind of can't believe they got away with it. I wanted to keep watching it but my mom wouldn't let me because of that out of the blue violence. I was 7
The guy definitely killed himself because he said he would commit Seppuku. Which means he will disembowel himself with a sword, then will be beheaded. That's why there was a guy with a sword behind him at the end, and a basket next to him for his head.
I know Zef has largely set the record straight on this but I believe that the "exception" that was made for Hiromatsu's sake was that Fuji, the young soldier's wife and Hiromatsu's granddaughter would be spared.
Yes, seppuku is ritual suicide, but I believe Toranaga refused to let him commit it. There would be no reason to kill the child if the father committed suicide.
You believe incorrectly. Just look it up, there are tons of articles all saying the same thing, and the creators talked about it on the official podcast. Toranaga wasn't happy about it, but he had to let the guy kill himself and his child after committing such a grave offense by reacting so strongly. It was him putting his foot inside the room that actually was the transgression. And once he openly swore to commit seppuku, there was nothing Toranaga could do about it.
Fantastically strong start to this show, it looks like the hype was well deserved. I too haven't seen or read the source material for this show so far, but it looks to be establishing its identity with a clear stamp, and is concerned with taking things slow and establishing characters and plot before really taking off.
The comparison with GoT is apt, because there is a bit of sex and violence to counterbalance the slower paced political intrigue, but it seems to respect its audience much more to not use the two as crutches to keep people tuning in. The acting, the set pieces, the setting itself, and the meticulous design immediately stand out as very high quality, and it seems like everyone involved in the project is trying to be as historically accurate as possible.
Few things I noticed: Kinda funny how both sides call each other "savages" within a sentence of each other when hauling the English captain from his ship. I'm fascinated by the fact that Portugal is so entrenched in Japanese culture even in 1600, and have already begun spreading Christianity like a plague to bend other countries to their will. Also, could the guy being boiled alive just gotten out of the frying pan? 🤔
"I know the guy had to execute his baby, but did he kill himself as well? Unclear."
He had asked permission to commit seppuku (ritual suicide) and was wearing the white robe that goes along with it. Seems a fair guess that he did that after killing his baby.
Having seen the original series in the 90s (and rewatched it at a more appropriate age) and read the book I was looking forward to this. Really liked the pilot.
For some reasons I don't understand, the show deviates from the book and the original show in some details.
What was annoying is the fisheye, extremely shallow depth of field, and the weird camera angles that made it hard to follow the action at times. Also the director seems to be obsessed with glare, filming against the sun.
So happy to see this covered here, and to see Zack doing the coverage (really enjoyed engaging about Star Trek: SNW, and one day I'll catch up on Rick and Morty). I have to say that, a few minor complaints aside, I absolutely loved this premiere and was immediately hooked. I don't think I've been this hot on a new show since maybe Severance? Everything from the depth of character to the clash of cultures has me completely riveted. And my quibbles have already been discussed in the comments - 1) the English in lieu of Portuguese, and I suppose Dutch too, makes a lot of sense (good luck finding the actors with the right mastery of the right languages), but the subtitles could do better than just saying '[In English]'; and 2) the lens, while mostly working for me (the direction and lighting is stunning) is annoying when the blurred edges happen to be where I am staring for the subtitles.
I am finally watching this show! I thought the first episode was intriguing. It’s definitely a show where you need to pay attention. It’s not going to hold your hand and explain everything. I liked the whole sequence where they lose that local leader from the boat and have to rescue him. Exciting action!
Finally started watching this show last week and didn't even realize it was being reviewed here! Really enjoying it so far (four episodes in). Since I'm further in I don't have a lot to add on this one, other than two notes:
-Yes, the samurai committed seppuku as well as killing his baby.
-I definitely didn't get a "white savior" vibe from this episode in large part because Blackthorne spends so much of the episode yelling like an idiot at his captors. (Hell, he can't even save his crew at this point, and maybe not himself.) Fortunately for him, he starts wising up after that.
Me thought this was solidly good-but-not-great — if we have to make Game of Thrones comparison, contrast charming, clever, soulful, self-hating Peter Dinkledge constantly talking way out of trouble in early episodes of that show, to Cosmo Jarvis just yelling at everyone in language he know full well they not understand. Me find it somewhat less compelling!
And way show treats language bother me more than it should. Japanese dialogue is in Japanese with subtitles. English dialogue in English. So far, so good. But Portuguese dialogue is in... English? It just baffling choice, given there are times when we know Blackthorne switches between English and Portuguese, but Jarvis just yell dialogue in English either way. Me not understand why they treat two languages differently, and me suspect it will continue to bug me for rest of series, or at least until other English-speaking characters no longer part of show.
Just finished watching the first episode, and came here to leave a similar comment about the language choices! I think it's mostly great that more TV and movie productions in recent years are giving us characters speaking in the actual languages they'd use instead of accented English, but it's very strange and immersion-breaking when only one foreign language in the story gets that treatment.
EDIT: I think the early scenes with Blackthorne and his crew are supposed to be in Dutch, too -- he's the only Englishman on-board -- but the dialogue is instead presented in English like the Portuguese is. Such a weird choice.
Really good point! A subtitled (...speaking in Portuguese...) could help a little to acknowledge it at least.
Maybe the rule is that in each scene where they don't acknowledge the language switch amongst the Europeans we can assume that both characters speaking can understand English and Portuguese or English and Dutch. 🤷♂️
I was getting frustrated about him yelling in English too. I can chalk it up to desperation but a diplomatic tone might have been more productive. Then again maybe provoking your captors could lead to some kind of unexpected opening to make progress. Like they lose their tempers and fumble and then you have a chance to learn something, steal the keys, or even escape. Sounds like a story beat we've all seen before - in fact there's plenty of fun TV Tropes pages on the topic.
I don’t think Blackthorne, at this point, is smart enough nor does he see the Japanese as anything other than brutes to be diplomatic.
Yes. At the very beginning he thinks he's so superior, as an Englishman and a (Protestant!) Christian and the Japanese are savages and idiots not deserving of respect. But he knows nothing of their culture at that point and also to be fair he's just been through some horrific ordeal at sea. All this to say I agree the way he acted at the beginning was annoying (including just yell in your native language to make them understand ugly foreigner trope) but understandable in context and he changes his tactics pretty quickly after that point
I noticed this and agree except there’s one problem: no one knows English except Blackthorne. The common language he can speak is Portuguese. So that means the show, if accurate, would be switching between Japanese and Portuguese. The business side of FX would not have been pleased! It’s a compromise to placate the suits. A show that uses language perfectly is Pachinko (on Apple TV+), flowing easily from Korean to Japanese to English (with color coded subtitles for each language.)
So glad this show is being covered here! I read the book about a year ago, and was on the fence about checking out this new adaptation. (I didn't bother with the original 70s one, largely for the reasons you laid out above.)
I was a skeptical modern reader, but the novel surprised me with how fleshed-out its Japanese characters generally seemed to be. The story definitely engages in some broad East/West dichotomies, but I'd say neither side of the cultural exchange is portrayed as wholly good or bad, and the primary arc of the piece does involve the European protagonist gaining a deeper understanding and appreciation for the people around him. At the same time, his own reputation gradually shifts from that of an uncivilized curiosity to a strange but honorable outsider -- particularly after he agrees to start bathing more than once a year!
It's still white savior adjacent, but that element is handled pretty well for the most part, and from this write-up, it sounds like the new show does even better on that front. Even on the page I was struck by the GOT-like intrigues and oblique threats punctuated by sudden outbursts of graphic violence, so I'm glad to hear that that part is coming across loud and clear in adaptation. I'll definitely have to find time in my schedule to check out at least these first couple episodes.
I came here comment on that. I and a few of my friends read Shogun in high school (early 00s), and had a big viewing party when we tracked down VHS tapes of the miniseries. So its been a while since I've read it, but my memory is it tilts toward romanticizing Japan as better than Europe. That has its own issues, but is perhaps a lesser and less common sin than the feared 'white guy becomes the bestest foreigner ever' trope. The arc is that Blackthorne comes expecting savages, and gets civilized by then - or at least, adopts their ways and is given a unique, proscribed role.
I just finished the book last night immediately before watching the episodes, and I'm not sure I totally agree that it romanticizes Japan. I think in some ways maybe it does, but there are also certainly times when the narrative is on Blackthorn's side, particularly when he's taken aback by how carelessly life can be treated (as mentioned in the review and deliberately highlighted early in both the show and book.)
I knew almost nothing about the book beyond the premise, the publication date, and the first trailer for the show, and went in expecting at least some level of problematic-ness, but didn't find that to be the case at all. It's thoughtful, nuanced, and just interested in everything about this period and the cultural forces involved.
I think he was saying the original miniseries romanticizes the Japanese (not necessarily the book). I'm not sure I agree with that assessment, but it certainly was (at the time) an amazing introduction to Japanese culture. Toranaga being played by Toshiro Mifune (one of the best actors ever) was a really big reason for its success.
I was referring to the book and the mini-series, but I remembered part of the book more than others (especially Blackthorne's conversion to Japan's standards of personal hygiene). I agree a/the key thing is that the book has an amazing amount of detail and interest in the period. Thanks for the context, everyone!
The mini-series does make a brief, significant change to the book's ending with a lot of implications for characterization and theme, and I wonder which way this production will go.
I've never read the novel or seen the 1980 miniseries but just from the first (long) episode this version doesn't agree with Blackthorn''s point of view that Europe is better or more advanced than Japan. The Portuguese guy just flat out tells him that Osaka is way more advanced than any European city and it's clear we're meant to agree. The word the Japanese use to refer to him is subtitled as "barbarian" to underline this. But at the same time the world of the Japanese is presented as extremely violent and dark. Having no idea what's coming next I'm find this approach really interesting
I agree. Everyone in the show views the “other” as a barbarian. I’m not sure they are wrong. Humanity is capable of great beauty and sophistication, but also immense cruelty and destruction-regardless of ethnicity. I’m looking forward to how the politics and scheming play out.
It took me until the very final scene to realize Rodrigues is none other than Richard Alpert himself, Nestor Carbonell
Yep. I knew the voice but couldn't figure out who it was. Had to go to IMDB and my jaw dropped. :)
Tiny nitpick. The original NBC miniseries aired Sept 1980, not 1976.
I remember it vividly, as it was a huge deal in my household because Asian representation was not a thing I saw on TV. I had the Asian guy on Barney Miller, and the other Asian guy on Quincy, then I had to go to white guy David Carradine on Kung Fu.
I saw in 1980 as well, and it (and Roots) were, by far, my favorite miniseries of that era. The performances were spectacular, and it's hard not to compare them to this new version.
It's odd to come here and have almost no one else who has seen the original. I suspect many Gen-X households definitely saw it as that was when we all tended to watch the same things. I was 13, and I immediately read the book (and also King Rat, Tai-Pei, and Noble House).
We were watching it and my mom turned it off immediately when a guy got beheaded lol
If I remember correctly, a villager doesn't bow as a samurai rides by, and samurai turns and lops the villager's head clean off. I think that was within the first 15 minutes of the first episode. That got me excited because I thought there would be a lot of swordplay, but it became a political intrigue and romantic story that was a bit boring for my 8-yr old self.
Yes! And that was such an extreme an unexpected thing to see with no warning on 1980 broadcast TV! I actually kind of can't believe they got away with it. I wanted to keep watching it but my mom wouldn't let me because of that out of the blue violence. I was 7
The guy definitely killed himself because he said he would commit Seppuku. Which means he will disembowel himself with a sword, then will be beheaded. That's why there was a guy with a sword behind him at the end, and a basket next to him for his head.
No, the whole reason his son is to be killed is in exchange for him not having to kill himself. The basket is for the child's dead body.
I know Zef has largely set the record straight on this but I believe that the "exception" that was made for Hiromatsu's sake was that Fuji, the young soldier's wife and Hiromatsu's granddaughter would be spared.
Thank you so much. I'm sure this where I got confused.
That is definitely not true. Seppuku means ritual suicide. He killed his son because he promised to wipe out his bloodline.
Yes, seppuku is ritual suicide, but I believe Toranaga refused to let him commit it. There would be no reason to kill the child if the father committed suicide.
You believe incorrectly. Just look it up, there are tons of articles all saying the same thing, and the creators talked about it on the official podcast. Toranaga wasn't happy about it, but he had to let the guy kill himself and his child after committing such a grave offense by reacting so strongly. It was him putting his foot inside the room that actually was the transgression. And once he openly swore to commit seppuku, there was nothing Toranaga could do about it.
Here's just one of many explainers: https://screenrant.com/shogun-seppuku-punishment-baby-explained/
You're right, I got it wrong.
I did really enjoy this, except... why all the fisheye??
Yeah, heavy use of anamorphic lenses on close-ups it looks like. I quite the very shallow depth of field on faces it gives here.
Found that very irritating too.
Fantastically strong start to this show, it looks like the hype was well deserved. I too haven't seen or read the source material for this show so far, but it looks to be establishing its identity with a clear stamp, and is concerned with taking things slow and establishing characters and plot before really taking off.
The comparison with GoT is apt, because there is a bit of sex and violence to counterbalance the slower paced political intrigue, but it seems to respect its audience much more to not use the two as crutches to keep people tuning in. The acting, the set pieces, the setting itself, and the meticulous design immediately stand out as very high quality, and it seems like everyone involved in the project is trying to be as historically accurate as possible.
Few things I noticed: Kinda funny how both sides call each other "savages" within a sentence of each other when hauling the English captain from his ship. I'm fascinated by the fact that Portugal is so entrenched in Japanese culture even in 1600, and have already begun spreading Christianity like a plague to bend other countries to their will. Also, could the guy being boiled alive just gotten out of the frying pan? 🤔
"I know the guy had to execute his baby, but did he kill himself as well? Unclear."
He had asked permission to commit seppuku (ritual suicide) and was wearing the white robe that goes along with it. Seems a fair guess that he did that after killing his baby.
Having seen the original series in the 90s (and rewatched it at a more appropriate age) and read the book I was looking forward to this. Really liked the pilot.
For some reasons I don't understand, the show deviates from the book and the original show in some details.
What was annoying is the fisheye, extremely shallow depth of field, and the weird camera angles that made it hard to follow the action at times. Also the director seems to be obsessed with glare, filming against the sun.
So happy to see this covered here, and to see Zack doing the coverage (really enjoyed engaging about Star Trek: SNW, and one day I'll catch up on Rick and Morty). I have to say that, a few minor complaints aside, I absolutely loved this premiere and was immediately hooked. I don't think I've been this hot on a new show since maybe Severance? Everything from the depth of character to the clash of cultures has me completely riveted. And my quibbles have already been discussed in the comments - 1) the English in lieu of Portuguese, and I suppose Dutch too, makes a lot of sense (good luck finding the actors with the right mastery of the right languages), but the subtitles could do better than just saying '[In English]'; and 2) the lens, while mostly working for me (the direction and lighting is stunning) is annoying when the blurred edges happen to be where I am staring for the subtitles.
I am finally watching this show! I thought the first episode was intriguing. It’s definitely a show where you need to pay attention. It’s not going to hold your hand and explain everything. I liked the whole sequence where they lose that local leader from the boat and have to rescue him. Exciting action!
Finally started watching this show last week and didn't even realize it was being reviewed here! Really enjoying it so far (four episodes in). Since I'm further in I don't have a lot to add on this one, other than two notes:
-Yes, the samurai committed seppuku as well as killing his baby.
-I definitely didn't get a "white savior" vibe from this episode in large part because Blackthorne spends so much of the episode yelling like an idiot at his captors. (Hell, he can't even save his crew at this point, and maybe not himself.) Fortunately for him, he starts wising up after that.
The book and the podcast and interviews and articles and recaps all disagree with your interpretation.