It's fascinating for me to dive into this a few days later, aware of the discourse, and find -- a high-fantasy series with really dynamic actors and glorious set-pieces that I'm excited to go back to next week! Makes me think other people are looking for something different from a GoT show. Yes, I hope to get deeply invested in the characters, but I love me some palace intrigue, and these actors (with the exception of Rheanyra, but the "coming soon" trailer has me excited about the change of actor) are so alive and fun to watch tear into the material. Could still go wrong, but Matt Smith sneering it up as a sadistic knight, I got no complaints.
I feel like there's a new trend of not doing a title card/opening credits for first episodes and then by episode 2 they will unveil it. Not sure why that's a thing now. This episode definitely felt like checking things off a list, with no humor or humanity in anything. I'll keep watching because as I told my comic book friend who is old enough to be jaded with MCU shit on Disney+ "well we already paid for it so might as well see what they did with our money." I love an enormous CGI budget can still be taken down by a few bad wigs. Looking forward to seeing where they go with this.
Pretty much agree with everything you wrote there, Myles (except the white wigs, which do not bother me at all). It felt nice going back to this universe but nothing really interested me much. I might be in the minority but I even felt that what we were shown was too much like GoT (unnecessary sex scenes and gore, for instance).
Was I the only one to have a strong impression of fakeness during the beginning of the episode? This whole view of King's Landing felt weirdly like a not-so-well-done video game. This is something that I never had with GoT and I am really wondering why I had this impression. Maybe the way the lighting was handled?
As for the pacing of he show, I very often feel that TV shows would benefit a lot from carefully establishing a status quo before getting to the disruptive element that will start the whole story. You are right to say that GoT actually used a whole season to do just that but most times, I think that just one well written episode would very efficiently achieve that.
So you can definitely count me in the "that was ok, let's see where this goes" camp.
I will say that, after watching this episode and reading your comments, I feel like I have a better idea of why 'House of the Dragon' was the series HBO went with. Quite simply, GoT under Benioff and Weiss was never that good at handling the magic and supernatural elements of the novels. In fact, I would argue the showrunners ultimately approached them as a necessary evil. (I'm pretty sure they more or less confirmed this in an interview.) By contrast, they gravitated towards/were really good at all the palace intrigue, all the King's Landing stuff and the jockeying for power.
And so, because that part of GoT unequivocally worked, building a spinoff show all about palace intrigue seemed like the most appealing proposition to HBO execs, as opposed to making one about all the magic and White Walker lore that the parent series was never all that comfortable with and ultimately bungled.
What Games of Thrones did well was surprisingly subvert expectations and make it feel like we were seeing small pieces of a huge world. Its first episode ended with a major shock. The first episode of House of the Dragon wasn’t paced to do that — it seems like establishing the stability of having a male heir in the first episode and only removing that stability at the very end might have worked better? And the scope of the show feels small. This show should be Succession, but with dragons, and I’m not getting that yet.
I just joined Episodic Medium and it's really wonderful to have a nice community to discuss great TV without the grossness of so many other comment sections, especially considering how toxic GOT discourse became at the end of it all. Thanks folks!
I enjoyed this first ep. I'd say it ranks just below the GOT pilot in terms of effectiveness, but ultimately wins out purely because I'm not completely confused as to who the characters are and how they're related to one another. I started reading A Game of Thrones purely so I could figure out the characters, whereas this one is much more generous in its smaller scope.
One little note Myles - Rhaenyra and Rhaenys are spelled with "ae", not "ea" which you had a couple of times. I only remember this because Rhaegar (Dany's oldest brother), Rhaego (her unborn son) and Rhaegal (one of the dragons) share the same prefix, "ae" seems to be the Targ way. But I'm not surprised you made the typo; we've all been typing "Rhea Seehorn" in abundance over the past few months (and with good reason, woweee what a final season).
"a Heart Tree in the Red Keep is certainly a change, although religion plays no significant role here with the Maesters mainly focused on medical care."
I got the impression the Maesters were always on the (pseudo) scientific side of things and quite skeptical of religion, even in GOT - it's the septs and septas who are the religious leaders in Westeros.
A minor observation: I thought the storytelling around the fate of the baby was kind of sloppy. A baby's cry in a near universal sign in TV language for "the baby is okay", and then if you looked away at the wrong moment (as I did) during the funeral scene it was easy to miss the tiny body on the pyre. It wasn't a major mistep - it was easy enough to get caught up in later scenes - but it was an important plot point that they presented in an unnecessarily roundabout way.
Beyond that, I'm mostly in the "This is interesting enough; let's see where it goes" camp. Paddy Considine was excellent. Matt Smith was good too, though I kind of hate seeing 11 as a brute.
Happy we're here -- and for sure count me in as a vote for the Discord, if only to engage with this specific community on this topic.
"[...] a plot development rather than a character development.". That feels like the hurdle this show will have to get over it, given its start as a 'history' book. That said, as a book reader and fan of TV, I really did enjoy the premiere. While I agree that characterization is slim in this first episode (we definitely got more of Arya's, Bran, Ned, Jon, Tyrion, etc, etc, etc in the pilot), I'm hoping to strong plot start here will open up space for characterization in the episodes that follow.
I find the GoT pilot easy to follow along -- now, 12 years later with rewatches and the full show and book reads. But in 2011, it must've been inscrutable (not too different from other HBO pilots in the late 00's). Now audiences have that backstory, and media savyness to hold multiverses in their mind... that a show about who of these X people will be in the Throne is simpler, and I'd say, expertly set up in the pilot. The GoT pilot doesn't tell you what the show *is* in a way this one does -- only in hindsight (or with book knowledge) you could tell what they were playing at.
Random notes:
- I assume, Myles, that you got all 6 episodes, but are writing your reviews before you watch the next one?
- I don't think Daemon is meant to be sympathetic, but as usual, not a full on villain. He definitely shouldn't be king, but he doesn't kid himself with nobility and propriety. He's one of the nobles in GoT/HotD that actually mingles with the small folk. And I could feel he cared for his brother on the funeral, and when (rudely) telling him the truth before being sent away.
- There is a godswood in the Red Keep in the books, though I don't think GoT ever showed it. Ned went to it in AGOT.
“ And quite simply, I don’t know how you come back from this.”
I think you’re being too hard on Daemon. Sure, he brutally enforced the law, but it was criminals that were the recipients of that brutality. He castrated a rapist. He de-armed a thief. Cruel? Yes. Unforgivable? In this context I’m not sure. Let’s remember how well the first show redeemed the guy that ended the pilot throwing a ten year old out a window.
This was a very efficient episode. I felt like I got an understanding of several of the main players and how they intertwine with one another, the wigs weren't as distracting as I feared, the production value remains as high as ever, and it just felt good to be immersed in this world again. I was a little surprised with how quickly the show got to Rhaenyra (oh jeez, a whole new set of Targaryen names I need to learn to spell) being named Viserys's heir. That seems like it could have been built to over the course of a few more episodes at least, but it appears that the writers think the crux of the story isn't the leadup to that decision, but rather the fallout from it. I don't necessarily disagree with them, but in comparison to the patient pacing of GoT season 1, it felt like a surprise.
And speaking of comparisons to Game of Thrones, one of the things that interested me most about this episode was how it felt like it was in conversation with some of the parts of its predecessor which were less than rapturously received:
-Instead of sex scenes designed to be titillating, we got a couple of unsexy sex scenes which were more sad than anything and were more focused on revealing Daemon's character.
-It actively engaged with a woman's place in society on a textual level, and looks to be turning a fight against an ingrained patriarchy into one of the main drivers of the plot (while Viserys forcing Aemma to continue bearing children and forcing her into a c-section without her consent doesn't seem to agree with that, it at least served as a catalyst for him to embrace Rhaenyra as his heir and defy patriarchal precedent, which is a big step for someone who only has the throne because he's a man).
-It did engage in a bit of the old ultraviolence at the tourney and during Daemon's clearing of the streets, but on both occasions it had characters commenting that such violence was unnecessary and out of place (this could be a case of the show trying to have its cake and eat it too, but it was at least notable that it addressed it). Even the one "dracarys" that we got wasn't a badass moment made for meming, but was instead mournful and somber, a far cry from Daenerys gleefully turning the dragon fire on whoever had rubbed her the wrong way at any given moment.
There's no way to know if the show will continue to act as a metatextual makeup for Game of Thrones's shortcomings, but the fact that it opened right off the bad with several examples demonstrating how this new series is trying to make good on its predecessor's failings strikes me as a positive sign.
The biggest surprise for me was the reframing of the "Song of Ice and Fire" as a prophesy foretelling the invasion of the White Walkers. Not only does that serve to link the two shows, but it also provides a bit of shading as to how the show is going to paint its protagonists versus its antagonists. No spoilers, but this story as written in Fire and Blood is one where who the good guys are is in the eye of the beholder, and one of my concerns with adapting it was that I wasn't sure how such ambiguity would fly on such a large scale and over multiple seasons of television. The idea that this is more than a dynastic struggle but potentially has the future of the continent riding on it could help to draw those lines more clearly and I'm interested to see how it plays out.
First off that was a horrific childbirth scene. Obviously modern medicine is totally different but as a Caesarian birth myself, I feel like I owe my mother flowers after seeing this episode.
I found myself definitely intrigued by this pilot, but not riveted in the way early Game of Thrones had my attention (though tbf I did not start watching Thrones live until several seasons in.) However, no Game of Thrones season aired during football season. So not sure if I'll get into the show enough to make it a priority over watching football Sunday nights to be honest.
As to the episode itself, two stylistic things stuck out to me. First, several scenes had overlapping dialogue of characters who weren't literally on the screen. For example, while Viserys is talking about Aegon in the dragon shrine/sanctuary(?) it flashes to the heir naming scene. Also after Daemon's brutality, Viserys is getting a report as the scene shows the council room not him literally hearing the news. The second visual peculiarity were several close-ups were only one character is visible, though it's part of an ongoing conversation. For example, when Viserys is at Aemma's (ugh why can't it just be Emma) bedside, we see shots of him through the back of the bed. Then it cuts to just Aemma looking at her husband. Similarly, in the council room there's shots of just Viserys and then just Otto Hightower as they're arguing about Daemon becoming king, with their chairs blocking half of the screen.
I'm not sure if these were coincidences I happened to notice or things that will become mainstays going forward. But in some ways they seemed new to me. And in case of the close-ups, felt par for the course for this more narrowly focused show.
Also, I definitely got some flirting vibes between Rhaenyra and Alicent. Wonder if that'll be developed more, almost like a parallel version of Renley and Loras?
Lastly, I did read when the time jump is. So I won't share that. But it was interesting to note that Emma D'Arcy was maybe the third listed actor in the end credits? I guess that's just a contractual thing even though she did not appear in this episode--although was she the opening narrator? Maybe that's what I'm missing for it to make sense.
This episode covered more plot ground than GoT would do in an entire season. Even with that—I’m not sure if I’m bought in. None of the characters really got me (agree with your points Daemon and Rheanyra—seems like they should be the breakouts but this episode did them no favors) and I’m not sure the show justified what it’s gonna be about. They’re just gonna be mad about who’s on the throne? GoT did that and I’m not sure that’s enough reason to exist.
I’ll give it some time to see where it goes but nothing about this episode felt “essential.”
Hoo boy that pilot did little for me. I agree the production and big budget looked great on screen. But beyond that there was little to grab onto. I read a lot of historical fiction and while yes childbirth was a big danger before modern gynecological advances I really loathe this type of story to telegraph “yes this is historical and we’re serious” by killing a pregnant woman. And then to call it a battleground, not great.
My biggest complaint which you alluded to is there is not an ounce of wit or humor to this episode. It’s all self serious and overly earnest. I do hope that improves and someone fun enters the scene.
Whelp I am supposed to watch this entire season with family and honestly I would have bailed, left to my own devices. I will be curious what everyone else thinks.
I’ll give it a few more episodes for sure, but it desperately needs a Tyrion, or hell even a Littlefinger or Arya, at this point. Give me someone recognizably human and with some humor.
I ended up watching the League of Their Own pilot afterward and liked it more, so maybe that’s just where my head is at. We’ll see!
" a Heart Tree in the Red Keep is certainly a change"
Wasn't that there in Game of Thrones? I only ever remember vague things from books so I may be mixing up memories from that and the tv series. I feel like Sansa spent time there, and Ned may have too, and possible talked with her at it? And from the book I have a memory of it being basically ignored, a hold over from the old religion that the southerners don't bother with any more.
It's fascinating for me to dive into this a few days later, aware of the discourse, and find -- a high-fantasy series with really dynamic actors and glorious set-pieces that I'm excited to go back to next week! Makes me think other people are looking for something different from a GoT show. Yes, I hope to get deeply invested in the characters, but I love me some palace intrigue, and these actors (with the exception of Rheanyra, but the "coming soon" trailer has me excited about the change of actor) are so alive and fun to watch tear into the material. Could still go wrong, but Matt Smith sneering it up as a sadistic knight, I got no complaints.
I feel like there's a new trend of not doing a title card/opening credits for first episodes and then by episode 2 they will unveil it. Not sure why that's a thing now. This episode definitely felt like checking things off a list, with no humor or humanity in anything. I'll keep watching because as I told my comic book friend who is old enough to be jaded with MCU shit on Disney+ "well we already paid for it so might as well see what they did with our money." I love an enormous CGI budget can still be taken down by a few bad wigs. Looking forward to seeing where they go with this.
Holy forking shirtballs!! Nurse Jackie!!
Pretty much agree with everything you wrote there, Myles (except the white wigs, which do not bother me at all). It felt nice going back to this universe but nothing really interested me much. I might be in the minority but I even felt that what we were shown was too much like GoT (unnecessary sex scenes and gore, for instance).
Was I the only one to have a strong impression of fakeness during the beginning of the episode? This whole view of King's Landing felt weirdly like a not-so-well-done video game. This is something that I never had with GoT and I am really wondering why I had this impression. Maybe the way the lighting was handled?
As for the pacing of he show, I very often feel that TV shows would benefit a lot from carefully establishing a status quo before getting to the disruptive element that will start the whole story. You are right to say that GoT actually used a whole season to do just that but most times, I think that just one well written episode would very efficiently achieve that.
So you can definitely count me in the "that was ok, let's see where this goes" camp.
I will say that, after watching this episode and reading your comments, I feel like I have a better idea of why 'House of the Dragon' was the series HBO went with. Quite simply, GoT under Benioff and Weiss was never that good at handling the magic and supernatural elements of the novels. In fact, I would argue the showrunners ultimately approached them as a necessary evil. (I'm pretty sure they more or less confirmed this in an interview.) By contrast, they gravitated towards/were really good at all the palace intrigue, all the King's Landing stuff and the jockeying for power.
And so, because that part of GoT unequivocally worked, building a spinoff show all about palace intrigue seemed like the most appealing proposition to HBO execs, as opposed to making one about all the magic and White Walker lore that the parent series was never all that comfortable with and ultimately bungled.
What Games of Thrones did well was surprisingly subvert expectations and make it feel like we were seeing small pieces of a huge world. Its first episode ended with a major shock. The first episode of House of the Dragon wasn’t paced to do that — it seems like establishing the stability of having a male heir in the first episode and only removing that stability at the very end might have worked better? And the scope of the show feels small. This show should be Succession, but with dragons, and I’m not getting that yet.
I just joined Episodic Medium and it's really wonderful to have a nice community to discuss great TV without the grossness of so many other comment sections, especially considering how toxic GOT discourse became at the end of it all. Thanks folks!
I enjoyed this first ep. I'd say it ranks just below the GOT pilot in terms of effectiveness, but ultimately wins out purely because I'm not completely confused as to who the characters are and how they're related to one another. I started reading A Game of Thrones purely so I could figure out the characters, whereas this one is much more generous in its smaller scope.
One little note Myles - Rhaenyra and Rhaenys are spelled with "ae", not "ea" which you had a couple of times. I only remember this because Rhaegar (Dany's oldest brother), Rhaego (her unborn son) and Rhaegal (one of the dragons) share the same prefix, "ae" seems to be the Targ way. But I'm not surprised you made the typo; we've all been typing "Rhea Seehorn" in abundance over the past few months (and with good reason, woweee what a final season).
"a Heart Tree in the Red Keep is certainly a change, although religion plays no significant role here with the Maesters mainly focused on medical care."
I got the impression the Maesters were always on the (pseudo) scientific side of things and quite skeptical of religion, even in GOT - it's the septs and septas who are the religious leaders in Westeros.
A minor observation: I thought the storytelling around the fate of the baby was kind of sloppy. A baby's cry in a near universal sign in TV language for "the baby is okay", and then if you looked away at the wrong moment (as I did) during the funeral scene it was easy to miss the tiny body on the pyre. It wasn't a major mistep - it was easy enough to get caught up in later scenes - but it was an important plot point that they presented in an unnecessarily roundabout way.
Beyond that, I'm mostly in the "This is interesting enough; let's see where it goes" camp. Paddy Considine was excellent. Matt Smith was good too, though I kind of hate seeing 11 as a brute.
Happy we're here -- and for sure count me in as a vote for the Discord, if only to engage with this specific community on this topic.
"[...] a plot development rather than a character development.". That feels like the hurdle this show will have to get over it, given its start as a 'history' book. That said, as a book reader and fan of TV, I really did enjoy the premiere. While I agree that characterization is slim in this first episode (we definitely got more of Arya's, Bran, Ned, Jon, Tyrion, etc, etc, etc in the pilot), I'm hoping to strong plot start here will open up space for characterization in the episodes that follow.
I find the GoT pilot easy to follow along -- now, 12 years later with rewatches and the full show and book reads. But in 2011, it must've been inscrutable (not too different from other HBO pilots in the late 00's). Now audiences have that backstory, and media savyness to hold multiverses in their mind... that a show about who of these X people will be in the Throne is simpler, and I'd say, expertly set up in the pilot. The GoT pilot doesn't tell you what the show *is* in a way this one does -- only in hindsight (or with book knowledge) you could tell what they were playing at.
Random notes:
- I assume, Myles, that you got all 6 episodes, but are writing your reviews before you watch the next one?
- I don't think Daemon is meant to be sympathetic, but as usual, not a full on villain. He definitely shouldn't be king, but he doesn't kid himself with nobility and propriety. He's one of the nobles in GoT/HotD that actually mingles with the small folk. And I could feel he cared for his brother on the funeral, and when (rudely) telling him the truth before being sent away.
- There is a godswood in the Red Keep in the books, though I don't think GoT ever showed it. Ned went to it in AGOT.
“‘stark’ white wigs.”
I see what you did there.
“ And quite simply, I don’t know how you come back from this.”
I think you’re being too hard on Daemon. Sure, he brutally enforced the law, but it was criminals that were the recipients of that brutality. He castrated a rapist. He de-armed a thief. Cruel? Yes. Unforgivable? In this context I’m not sure. Let’s remember how well the first show redeemed the guy that ended the pilot throwing a ten year old out a window.
This was a very efficient episode. I felt like I got an understanding of several of the main players and how they intertwine with one another, the wigs weren't as distracting as I feared, the production value remains as high as ever, and it just felt good to be immersed in this world again. I was a little surprised with how quickly the show got to Rhaenyra (oh jeez, a whole new set of Targaryen names I need to learn to spell) being named Viserys's heir. That seems like it could have been built to over the course of a few more episodes at least, but it appears that the writers think the crux of the story isn't the leadup to that decision, but rather the fallout from it. I don't necessarily disagree with them, but in comparison to the patient pacing of GoT season 1, it felt like a surprise.
And speaking of comparisons to Game of Thrones, one of the things that interested me most about this episode was how it felt like it was in conversation with some of the parts of its predecessor which were less than rapturously received:
-Instead of sex scenes designed to be titillating, we got a couple of unsexy sex scenes which were more sad than anything and were more focused on revealing Daemon's character.
-It actively engaged with a woman's place in society on a textual level, and looks to be turning a fight against an ingrained patriarchy into one of the main drivers of the plot (while Viserys forcing Aemma to continue bearing children and forcing her into a c-section without her consent doesn't seem to agree with that, it at least served as a catalyst for him to embrace Rhaenyra as his heir and defy patriarchal precedent, which is a big step for someone who only has the throne because he's a man).
-It did engage in a bit of the old ultraviolence at the tourney and during Daemon's clearing of the streets, but on both occasions it had characters commenting that such violence was unnecessary and out of place (this could be a case of the show trying to have its cake and eat it too, but it was at least notable that it addressed it). Even the one "dracarys" that we got wasn't a badass moment made for meming, but was instead mournful and somber, a far cry from Daenerys gleefully turning the dragon fire on whoever had rubbed her the wrong way at any given moment.
There's no way to know if the show will continue to act as a metatextual makeup for Game of Thrones's shortcomings, but the fact that it opened right off the bad with several examples demonstrating how this new series is trying to make good on its predecessor's failings strikes me as a positive sign.
The biggest surprise for me was the reframing of the "Song of Ice and Fire" as a prophesy foretelling the invasion of the White Walkers. Not only does that serve to link the two shows, but it also provides a bit of shading as to how the show is going to paint its protagonists versus its antagonists. No spoilers, but this story as written in Fire and Blood is one where who the good guys are is in the eye of the beholder, and one of my concerns with adapting it was that I wasn't sure how such ambiguity would fly on such a large scale and over multiple seasons of television. The idea that this is more than a dynastic struggle but potentially has the future of the continent riding on it could help to draw those lines more clearly and I'm interested to see how it plays out.
First off that was a horrific childbirth scene. Obviously modern medicine is totally different but as a Caesarian birth myself, I feel like I owe my mother flowers after seeing this episode.
I found myself definitely intrigued by this pilot, but not riveted in the way early Game of Thrones had my attention (though tbf I did not start watching Thrones live until several seasons in.) However, no Game of Thrones season aired during football season. So not sure if I'll get into the show enough to make it a priority over watching football Sunday nights to be honest.
As to the episode itself, two stylistic things stuck out to me. First, several scenes had overlapping dialogue of characters who weren't literally on the screen. For example, while Viserys is talking about Aegon in the dragon shrine/sanctuary(?) it flashes to the heir naming scene. Also after Daemon's brutality, Viserys is getting a report as the scene shows the council room not him literally hearing the news. The second visual peculiarity were several close-ups were only one character is visible, though it's part of an ongoing conversation. For example, when Viserys is at Aemma's (ugh why can't it just be Emma) bedside, we see shots of him through the back of the bed. Then it cuts to just Aemma looking at her husband. Similarly, in the council room there's shots of just Viserys and then just Otto Hightower as they're arguing about Daemon becoming king, with their chairs blocking half of the screen.
I'm not sure if these were coincidences I happened to notice or things that will become mainstays going forward. But in some ways they seemed new to me. And in case of the close-ups, felt par for the course for this more narrowly focused show.
Also, I definitely got some flirting vibes between Rhaenyra and Alicent. Wonder if that'll be developed more, almost like a parallel version of Renley and Loras?
Lastly, I did read when the time jump is. So I won't share that. But it was interesting to note that Emma D'Arcy was maybe the third listed actor in the end credits? I guess that's just a contractual thing even though she did not appear in this episode--although was she the opening narrator? Maybe that's what I'm missing for it to make sense.
This episode covered more plot ground than GoT would do in an entire season. Even with that—I’m not sure if I’m bought in. None of the characters really got me (agree with your points Daemon and Rheanyra—seems like they should be the breakouts but this episode did them no favors) and I’m not sure the show justified what it’s gonna be about. They’re just gonna be mad about who’s on the throne? GoT did that and I’m not sure that’s enough reason to exist.
I’ll give it some time to see where it goes but nothing about this episode felt “essential.”
Hoo boy that pilot did little for me. I agree the production and big budget looked great on screen. But beyond that there was little to grab onto. I read a lot of historical fiction and while yes childbirth was a big danger before modern gynecological advances I really loathe this type of story to telegraph “yes this is historical and we’re serious” by killing a pregnant woman. And then to call it a battleground, not great.
My biggest complaint which you alluded to is there is not an ounce of wit or humor to this episode. It’s all self serious and overly earnest. I do hope that improves and someone fun enters the scene.
Whelp I am supposed to watch this entire season with family and honestly I would have bailed, left to my own devices. I will be curious what everyone else thinks.
I’ll give it a few more episodes for sure, but it desperately needs a Tyrion, or hell even a Littlefinger or Arya, at this point. Give me someone recognizably human and with some humor.
I ended up watching the League of Their Own pilot afterward and liked it more, so maybe that’s just where my head is at. We’ll see!
" a Heart Tree in the Red Keep is certainly a change"
Wasn't that there in Game of Thrones? I only ever remember vague things from books so I may be mixing up memories from that and the tv series. I feel like Sansa spent time there, and Ned may have too, and possible talked with her at it? And from the book I have a memory of it being basically ignored, a hold over from the old religion that the southerners don't bother with any more.